Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Parenting Matters. Real talk from toddlers to teens. I'm your host, Rebecca Walsh, director of Early Childhood Matters in San Francisco, and I'm joined by my longtime mentor and co host, Belan Gioretto. Together, we're here to answer your parenting questions from the early years through adolescence. As seasoned and humble parents and early childhood educators, we bring over 50 years of combined experience in teaching, training, directing, and coaching parents. We started this podcast to help you raise resilient, confident kids and teens and to give you practical tools that can increase your confidence, effectiveness, and your joy in parenting. This is real talk where we share multiple strategies because every child is unique and we always explore what to try when just nothing else seems to be working. So let's get real and let's get to it.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Foreign.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Welcome back, everybody. We are really excited to be here with you all again and talking this week about fostering independence in our pre adolescents and adolescents and what that looks like, why it's important, why it's so hard to do, and what are some important baby steps steps and then leading to some bigger steps that we can take to really increase the autonomy and independence of our our children as they grow and develop. Now, last week we were talking about this idea of independent play in early childhood, right? And first of all, like, what do you see as the connections between some of those skills that children develop in independent play? And maybe you want to define independent play for us again, but what do you see as far as some of the skills that they develop in independent play in those early years and how that translates into more independence and autonomy in their later years?
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Right. I mean, every parent that I've ever talked to wants their child to be happy as an adult, to grow up to be a happy person.
And part of that being happy is being able to be resilient and to cope with challenges.
And so all the work that's done at these early ages and needs to start happening are all the building blocks of that goal, which is is truly essential without parents being able to rewrite their job description. Just like when you have an infant, what was appropriate in those first three months? Suddenly you have to rewrite your job description. Your child is grown and changed and the child is usually here and the parent is trying to catch up with the child as the child gets older. And as we look toward adulthood, this becomes essential. So independent, by independent play, we mean play where the child is using their own imagination. There's no screens.
The parent isn't leading the play or telling the child what to play, but believing that the child has the capabilities of developing an imagination and a focus that will allow them to not only be able to play independently, but to love playing independently and enjoy and nurture their imagination. And these are lifelong gifts that will go with your child through their entire life and again result in a much happier, a much more resilient adult who can handle the curve balls that we're thrown as we get older. It's very hard for parents because nobody wants to see their child unhappy. Parents get great pleasure out of doing for their children, some more than others who are more controlling. And it's very hard to start letting go and step back and believe that your child can do these things. What are the antecedents of self esteem? One, that you are able to solve problems, that you are seen as capable by your parents. Every time we interfere with a child doing things for themselves, the message that you're sending is you can't do this, you're not capable. I don't believe in you. The opposite of that is using problem solving skills is to send a message to the child you can do this. I believe in you, you are able, you are capable. And it starts at whatever age your child is, but is essential as they get that you start early and then essential as they get older.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And what like what would you say, you know, speaking from your own experience, skills that you saw develop through that independent play, what do you think carried over as, as they were adolescents?
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. One really believing that they could do things on their own, being very creative and, and both my sons have work is very creative and that takes a lot of courage to have a job that's based on your creativity and just feeling that they have the, the, the components to deal with whatever life throws them. I mean that is a greatest gift as a parent to see that. And you know, parenting doesn't end at a certain point, it goes on for the rest of your life.
And it's very important that your children believe that you believe in them, that you think that they have the capabilities. And so when we over function for kids, they under function and they don't really believe that they can do things, nor do they feel like they should do things.
Children get great satisfaction out of real work experiences, great satisfaction out of problem solving. If you're solving your child's children's problem, that could be a first step is to really involve them, say oh, we have a problem, what are we going to do? Who has a good idea? If I would do that at school. And I would say even to the two year olds, oh, we have a problem. What's the name of our problem?
He took my shovel. Oh, what are we going to do? Sit down here, let's stop all the play. These little two year olds could solve that problem. And we're so proud of themselves.
If parents say their older children can't do that, I believe they just have not given them the opportunity and they don't believe that they can. So part of this is changing your job description and really not over functioning for your child and, and really believing them. It still takes a lot of time. The time you invest is invaluable.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that idea of not over functioning and that in over functioning it invites children to under function.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Is so powerful. Can we break that down a little bit?
[00:07:12] Speaker B: So here, here's my best story. When I read this I thought, oh, that's ridiculous. My kids will never get ready for school in time. So we, we got a timer. I said how much time do you think you need to get ready for school? And I, they picked, I think 30 minutes. Set the timer. I said tomorrow morning you're going to, we made a timeline, you know, brush your teeth, get your lunch.
And I said I believe you can do this. I'm not going to say a word tomorrow morning. But the car leaves at 7:30.
And while I waited it out in my mind I was saying, oh my God, they'll never be able to do this. They can't do this. And Andrew, who is the most sort of reluctant to do things on time, he was in the car 10 minutes before I had to leave and I thought, oh, there is something to this. And I didn't have to spend my whole morning talking, talking and getting exhausted. It was a revelation.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it was.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: And so as our children grow. Right. And develop, then again, as you said, we have to change our expectations and continue to.
So if the expectation, you know, of a five year old or a six year old or even a three year old could probably do that was to get ready for school. You know, as our children are moving into adolescence, we have to increase the expectation of that.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. Right, Absolutely. If not, the message is you're not capable, you can't do this. So as we change and our expectations, the message to the child is wow, my mom or my dad thinks I really can do this.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: And that's how you build self esteem.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I mean I remember going to college and having to teach my friends how to do Laundry.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Right. And I, I started doing my own laundry when I was in second grade.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: Yay.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: And you know, mostly out of necessity. Right. My mom had three kids, she was a single mom and she went back to work and she, you know, she didn't have the time, so she taught us how to do it and that was it. And so I think that, but I felt, you know, I think as far as the connection to self esteem. Right. Feeling capable.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: And even as a young adult, like, feeling that I was, you know, really capable versus feeling like, oh my gosh, insecure. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to do this. Can somebody show me? Right. So it does build that long term self esteem. And so that was something I tried, you know, to instill in my own children through laundry was just, okay, you could do your own laundry at like, I know you could do it at second grade.
And so I started all of my children in second grade or younger, I think Patrick was in kindergarten. And they just have their own laundry bins in their rooms and they're responsible for noticing when it gets fill.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Um, and you train them how to measure the soap and what buttons to push because there has to be training in some of this.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. But, but I think that's an example. And sitting down right. With your child and saying, hey, here are the household tasks. I think that was something for me where, when I was starting to get to a point in my motherhood where I was feeling really overwhelmed by all of the household tasks and all of the things, a million things that we're juggling and doing, I kind of sat down with them and said, what are some things? Here are all the things that we do as your parents.
What are some things that you could take off my list and having those conversations.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: That's, that's great. Yes. Involve your children in these discussions of what they can do and what they can't do. You might be really surprised and you're going to have to bite your tongue if you say, oh, no, you can't do that. Try it. As long as it's safe. Mean, think of the skills in laundry, plus this feeling of being capable, and that leads to a very happy adult.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think again, it can be harder to give some of these things to your children, some of these responsibilities, depending on our own personalities and dispositions. I, I personally feel like because I'm not super great at household tasks, it was easier for me to give them to my children.
And so though that's something that I struggle with. I think it actually ended up being positive for them because I really did, you know, out of sort of out of necessity, need to invite them more into that, into that process.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Love real work. If I, when I was at school, if we would have a big delivery, let's say, of a hundred rolls of toilet paper and if I had kids help me undo the box and put the toilet paper away, it was like I had given them an ice cream cone. They were so excited.
And we forget that because, let's face it, it's probably easier for us to do it ourselves, but the opportunities missed are, are immense.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah. But we also. Thinking about adolescents, they're not all. They're not always so excited about these extra things.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: No. As they get older. But that's why you want to start earlier when they are, when it is easier.
But you know, you cannot give up on the adolescent. They have to feel connected. They have to feel, even if they complain.
Remember back to when you were an adolescent, that's a really good help to be effective as a parent. Remember what it was like.
And as, as, as obnoxious as you might have been, you did not want your parents to just disappear on you and to not be involved. And part of this is having fun, make it fun, have fun with it.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think some fun things that can come with giving children more independence is, you know, allowing them to go up park and meet their friends. Right.
Allowing them to figure out how to walk home from school or take the city bus.
And you know, if we're. Again, sometimes it's easier for us to organize a ride for them or to, you know, pick them up from school each day. But what are we missing in not allowing them to, to, you know, figure those things out on their own? Right.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Because they're soon going to be on their own and you will not be there. And those children that have not had these experiences truly struggle and are miserable in school and in their next phase of life. And so it has to start now. Just like imagining your child crossing a street is almost impossible for parents of young children, those of you that have older kids at 15 and a half, your child can be, be behind the wheel of a car. And that's coming.
So we have to give them these experiences in a gentle way, but in a clear way.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: I mean, developing their capabilities.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I'm, I mean, so my oldest has started high school this year and I feel like somebody started a timer on my motherhood and on all the life skills that I need to teach him before, you know, I mean, he's literally three and a half years away from having to live completely on his own.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's unbelievable, you know.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's actually unbelievable. And so I'm glad that I've started some of these sooner than later. But there's also things that I'm like, oh my gosh, I still need to, you know, really rev up your autonomy around, you know, some of these things, like cooking, for example, is a goal that we have.
But you know, to your point, the, do children, when they get to that next stage of life, right, Are they feeling capable and confident or do they feel miserable? And you know, Julie Lythcott Ames writes the book how to Raise an Adult and she talks about, she's a former dean of students for freshmen at Stanford and she talks at length about how these students were coming in. She published a book in 2015 and she talks about these students coming in with more on their cvs. They've done more, they've had more accomplishments, more extracurriculars, more volunteer, you know, all of these things and you know, higher grades and higher SAT score and yet completely less and less capable of just everyday adult kinds of experiences.
And you know, it's, it's interesting because I think sometimes there can be a direct correlation because if you think about those children that are super over, over scheduled, right. And parents are trying so hard to get them to do this volunteer and, and to get to do, you know, this opportunity and that extracurricular, well, guess what? Now I have to drive them because I only have a five minute window in between, you know, here and there. And you know, I'm, I'm sort of like pushing you into those things instead of, you know, waiting to see kind of that connection to independent play. Right. Like what is your, what is, what are you passionate about? What are you excited about?
And you know, this connection to the mental health decline in young adults.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's very sobering. The news on, on, on mental health challenges those first few years in college, especially for kids who can't cope, who've not had to have had cope. And so to change your attitude about problems, see problems as solvable, see problems as positive to say your child has.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: To see them as, not you as the adult, right?
[00:16:49] Speaker B: You have to starts with you, you have to model it and you know, and to say, oh wow, I have this big problem. I wonder how I'm going to solve this.
I mean, what, what a radical thing to have children think that Problems are solvable and not the end of the world. But you have to model it and, and empower that child is watching you beat yourself up when you may have a problem or make a mistake. That model is very detrimental.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's a whole, that's a whole other thing to explore. Yeah. But I think also, you know, if you're in the habit of my child has a problem, how can I solve it? Right, right. Transitioning that from my child has a problem, how do I empower them to start to think about solutions and start to advocate for themselves?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Just start very simply, name it, name the problem. And then the question is, who has a good idea?
[00:17:41] Speaker A: And with adolescents it's the same.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: You can do the same thing. Well, you start early, it's even easier. But if you haven't absolutely start and your, your kids will look at you kind of amazed that you think that they can actually do that when you've solved all their problems. But you can say, I believe in you, I know you can solve this. Everything else is going to stop until you solve it.
You know, that's part of setting the limits for this. But it's an amazing boost to their self esteem.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, you know, maybe an example from my own life is like when one of my kids was having a trouble with a teacher. Right. And I think when they're young, you know, you're probably going to email the teacher and check in and maybe have a meeting. But as they get into that middle school and high school years, you don't want to be the one emailing the teacher. Right. You really want them to be the one to email their teacher to set up a meeting to talk about these things. And so just, you know, starting with, you know, when they're complaining about something or an assignment or something they don't understand.
Have you, like, what are some of the solutions that you've tried? Right. What are some things that you've, what are some steps that you've already taken?
What didn't work? What other ideas do you have? Right. So that very similar model of problem solving with young children, but helping our older children to see that they, they probably do have some ideas that they haven't tried. But if we jump in and you know, immediately email the teacher and say, oh, you know, my child doesn't understand this assign or this grade doesn't seem fair and they put a lot of effort in. Right. Like how does that sort of inhibit their growth?
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it undermines their feeling of being capable.
Very few Parents can do that.
I'm, I, you know, because they feel like they have to take care of everything. But as you start thinking about raising an adult.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Right. Your job is not to raise a child. And to have a child who's happy, you're raising an adult who is happy. Right. And for an adult who is happy needs very different skills. Right. And they need to feel confident and competent and self reliant. Yeah. And that's so connected to their mental health.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I think we lose sight of that and I think it's very hard to go from being reactive to responsive. But that's really the key here. And so just to become, try to become more aware of, of your responses and really, you know, try to work on this in a way that your child can see. And you could even say, you know, I have a big problem. I wanted to take care of everything for you. I, I want, I don't want you to ever have any struggles. But I realize you, all of us learn a lot when we have a struggle and struggles are good things.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: And we can't have a lot of ability to solve problems and solve struggles.
So I'm going to work on that and I'm going to help you to work on it too.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think even the struggle in, when we give children more independence in their, in their transportation, let's say, and they get into a situation on the bus where, you know, I mean, we live in San Francisco. Right. So sometimes taking them the city bus, you may encounter, you know, certainly, you know, my daughter and her friend took the bus to the mall the other day from our house. She's, she's 12, she's nearly 13. And you know, we kind of went over the route and she doesn't have a phone, but she an Apple watch and so she can get a hold of us if she needs to. But it was the first time she takes the bus to school, which is just like, you know, a ten minute ride. But this was like a little bit, a little bit longer and she needed to change buses. So we kind of went over it. She felt comfortable, her friend felt comfortable.
And, but it was interesting afterwards she told me that there was, you know, somebody on the bus that was having a hard time and that the bus driver had to ask him to leave and he was kind of yelling and all this kind of thing. And I said, oh, you know, how did you feel? Did you feel safe? And she's like, well, you know, we kind of moved towards the front of the bus. I was like, smart Right. And we've talked about that. You know, make sure you. You sit at the front of the bus. And. And she said, I was a little uncomfortable, you know, for a minute, but then he did end up getting off at the. At the next stop. And she said, I kind of felt like he was probably just having a hard time. And we kind of talked about the empathy piece there. But, but, but my. The main thing there is that having those moments where. Because I didn't drive her, which I could have, having those moments where I do feel a little scared, maybe I do feel a little bit nervous, and then realizing that arc of emotion, but I was okay. I moved closer to the people that I knew could keep me safe. You know, I knew I could call if I needed to, which she's in.
But that feeling is what's so essential. And she talks about a lot in her book, too. Like, if we haven't had uncomfortable moments, moments of stress or challenge or feeling. Feeling like we. We didn't quite know what to do, but then we figured it out, then when we get to a position where we don't have our parents around, we don't have our best friends around, and we don't know what to do, you know, do we have practice with that feeling of anxiety, of discomfort, of challenge. Right.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Really essential.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: So I think that's the other. The other big piece that we have to keep in mind. Like, why is this so important? It's so important that our children do have moments of being out of their comfort zone. This is. This is their.
This is the age where we want them to experience a little bit of discomfort. Right, Absolutely. So that's. That's, I think, a huge thing. But, yeah, I think. As far as the other reason why it's so hard, what would you say, what else makes this so hard in practice?
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Well, again, it's. It's really changing your response. It's changing your expectations, and change is hard, and there's not really any. A lot of guidance for parents as they enter this stage. And, you know, again, looking back at your own childhood, your own adolescence, you might have some good models there of things that your parents were able to manage and let you experience, or you might have come from parents who were incredible, incredibly worried and controlling, and so that's going to be even harder for you. But I think having these discussions with your kids, seeing what they think are some responsibilities or some new things that they can do, can be a really great way of connecting with your children and just talking about it out loud. Rebecca said, take baby steps, build your own confidence with this and realize that your children are only going to. If you have adolescent kids, you've only got a couple of years and they're going to be totally on their own.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: And that the, the research really confirms what we're saying is that the kids that had parents that did everything that, where they never had a problem, really have incredibly difficult time when they go off to school.
So I think it's just another way of looking at this as, as so vital that we give kids these coping mechanisms.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And the baby steps, like you said, are really important. And that is something like I remember when, you know, Maggie was in sixth grade and the first time, you know, she walked, you know, somewhere on her own with her friends, you know, I followed and stayed behind and you know, we talked about like, you know, how to cross the street all over again and just being mindful that when you're with your friends and you're talking, you still have to stop and look both ways. And I followed her and just, just watched her kind of navigate that and then had to say, I noticed that you weren't always stopping. And so you do have to take those baby steps to build your confidence. But I will say like a year later, she feels really confident riding the bus.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: And if you find that fear is getting in the way, do some research. Unfortunately, in this country, parents are terrified that terrible things are going to happen to their kids and it's just not based on reality.
You know, it. Your child has a better chance of getting hit by lightning than having some of these horrible things that we think about. So it's.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Or have a much higher chance if they're home and online.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Well, yeah, right. There's a whole other discussion, but yeah.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: But we, you know, as the Anxious Generation book. Right.
He talks about how we're overprotecting children in the real world and under protecting them on the online world. And I've heard parents say over and over, well, at least my child at home playing video games on Friday night or Saturday night. And at least they're safe. At least they're. It's like, well, really the research is showing us that that's actually much less safe for their overall mental health and you know, their risk of something, something happening. So that, that is another topic that we'll come back to.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: But it is so important, as you said, that if you are, are being paralyzed by the anxiety, to know that it's actually, you know, I always.
It's much more common for a child to end up with an anxiety disorder, depression, suicidal thinking, you know, that's so much more common than a child being kidnapped.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: So how are we building those skills for our children? And. And I think the other thing that's just hard about this maybe, and this is a good way to. To close the conversation, is something that we've talked about before, Belen, when you do hit that point where. So I'll. I'll share an example. Like, I did have that conversation, like you suggested, with my kids, and this was, you know, maybe six months ago, and I was feeling really, like, overwhelmed right. From the motherhood world, and that I really just needed more help and that they were old enough and that they should take on some more responsibilities.
So we kind of had this conversation. We ended up settling on. And we were having trouble with getting out of the house on time, so we ended up settling on. There's five people in our family.
Each person will choose a day of the week to make breakfast.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Beautiful.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Yes, Beautiful in theory. Okay, so let's get real. So, you know, the first week, they all made the breakfast, and by the second week, it was. It was my husband. And by. By, you know, and Maggie. And then Maggie, because she enjoys cooking, she enjoys that more. It was easier for her. But then she was like, mom, it's not fair. The boys aren't doing it. And I'm like, you're right. Okay, you stop doing it because the boys aren't doing it. Like, this isn't fair. And I don't want to, you know, instill that whole paradigm. So it kind of fell off. But actually, just this past weekend, we sat down again, and I had them each pick what they wanted to make, and that really helped. And so I think you put it really well of just, like, kind of slowly coming back to it.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: Yeah. It's kind of like meditation. Expect to go off, to not follow through, and then gently, without beating yourself up over it, gently go back to it and refocus.
You know, it's. It's. Change is hard.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: But the goal of this is excellent. I love it. And so just keep gently. Expect that, you know, you might have a week where it's not working so well. But don't give up and come back to it, because once it's a schedule, once kids, once humans get into a schedule, it's. It's a lot easier.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I love that idea of just not beating yourself up about it, but not completely giving up. Yeah.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Don't give up because your children are watching you.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: And if you want them to have tenacity and follow through, you've got to model it.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And it can be hard. Like, I get it. Because what happens when they don't wake up and then you end up making it for them? And. But we have to keep revisiting it and keep, Keep saying this is still our goal.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: And this is. And sometimes there's consequences around that. Like you're gonna have to grab a bar and go, like, that's, you know.
But I think continuing to come back to it in the face of failure because some of the increasing independence is more. Is harder for us than our children.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: But some of it, like, as far as increasing their responsibilities around the house, like, sometimes that can be harder on them than. Than. Than it is on us or equally hard because we have to be the ones to follow through. Right, right, right. But continuing to come back to it is so important and not giving up.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: So.
All right. Well, we hope we've inspired you a little bit with some of these ideas of really helping your child to increase their independence, around household responsibilities, around their transportation, and around advocating for themselves and.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Bring problem solving into this and really believe you have to make the. The. The switch to believe that your child can solve a problem, can work things out. And they will notice the difference. They will notice that you are saying, sending a much different message. And that message, again, is that you believe in them. You see them as capable, you see them as able. And that is thrilling to kids when. When they get that message from adults.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: Yes. And such and such a gift. Right. To be able to see if my parent sees me as capable.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Then I see myself as capable. Yeah. And as you've shared, I think in watching your own boys grow, like such an essential part of who they are is being able to see themselves as handling what life throws at them.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Capable. And that is the greatest gift I think we can give our children.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: Because life will throw who knows what.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: So wonderful. Well, we will see you back. We are going to keep talking about this independence. I think we have some more episodes, certainly on early childhood that we want to talk about as far as increasing children's independence in the home. Much more to talk about with. With adolescents as well. So we'll see you next time.
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Shout out to my teenager Joey for continuing to follow his passions in piano and music production and for creating the music for this podcast.
For our next episode, we are heading back to the early years to answer what to do when your child doesn't get invited to the birthday party, is told they can't play, or perhaps is the one doing the excluding. And be sure to stay tuned for our adolescent version because this topic certainly heats up in the middle school years.
