Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Parenting Matters. Real talk from toddlers to teens. I'm your host, Rebecca Walsh, director of Early Childhood Matters in San Francisco. We started this podcast to help you raise resilient, confident kids and teens and to give you practical tools that can increase your confidence, effectiveness and your joy in parenting.
This is real talk where we share multiple strategies because every child is unique and we always explore what to try when just nothing else seems to be working.
So let's get real and let's get to it.
Today you are in for a treat because if you have a middle schooler, you probably have or have had or will have some middle school social drama.
We've all been there as parents and it can be pretty brutal. And while it is pretty normal to go through these experiences, we can probably remember these experiences ourselves.
It doesn't make it any easier.
And Today we have Dr. Nina Kaiser joining us. She is a licensed psychologist and founder of Practice here in San Francisco. Nina specializes in evidence based strategies to help kids, teens and parents effectively cope with stress, worry and big emotions. Nina is passionate about mental health prevention and her goal in founding practice was to increase availability of traditional mental health intervention services or while also pairing these services with innovative group educational classes for teens that focus on prevention.
Nina has 20 years of experience in mental health across university, medical and outpatient settings and has been featured as an expert mental health source in the New York Times, National Geographic, Real simple and Parents magazine, among others.
Join me in WELCOMING Nina or Dr. Nina Kaiser to the show.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: So lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Oh, I'm so excited to have you on this show and you have been such an invaluable resource for our ECM families over the years as they grow and sort of move into that pre adolescent and adolescent years of development. So I'm so excited to have you on the show and maybe you could just start by just telling us a little bit about the work that you do here in San Francisco and practice.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: I know that shows you how much I knew about SE when I founded our team, which is nothing. I am a licensed psychologist. I've got a background in working with kids, teens and parents, was on staff at UCSF for a number of years before going into private practice and then Rebecca, like you said, founding a team practice named Practice.
You know, we have so much research that shows us that mental health is based on skills that we can all learn in practice. So that's where the name came from.
But yeah, now we're a team of 16 clinicians doing evidence based mental health and wellness treatment, psychological assessment and educational prevention programs, both direct to families and in the context of work with schools and with local companies too. So it's. Yeah, I feel really strongly about all families having access to evidence based mental health care and evidence based mental health information kind of at the earliest possible points in their journeys. So we focus too much on intervening after they're already really significant challenges and not enough one delivering information that people need early on. Which is exactly. I mean, I have so much respect for you and the work that you and your team do for exactly that reason too.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. It's been so great to collaborate over the years for sure. And we're really excited to have you on for this topic and really talking about the social exclusion. Exclusion and kind of some of the, all those normal things that kids go through in middle school. And we just had our episode focusing on the same topic in the preschool years. Obviously when it gets to middle school, things heat up a little bit.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, honestly, even before middle school, right. It's kind of that third to fifth grade range that we really start hearing, you know, the beginning concerns from families about shifting social allegiances and drama.
Right. And then you're right, like intensive.
As kids get into middle school, there's that developmental shift that causes kids to really, you know, really turn into peer relationships. And having those social relationships carry so much importance kind of adds fuel to the fire sexually. Right. In a way that's hard. It's so hard.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: So hard. And I mean, I have, I have a middle school daughter myself right now in seventh grade, and then my son just finished ninth grade. So we just went through the middle school, you know, with, with the boy middle school thing, which I have to say, like, I think it's really underestimate. Everybody talks about the girl drama and all of that, but I think that the boys go through their own shifts as well. Right. They're changing and growing and developing and, you know, getting new interests and going through puberty and all those things. And it's going to shift your social relationships. Each of those things. Right?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: No, like any change in development and identity. Right. Changes the people that you are kind of drawn to. Right. Or the, the level of connection you feel to the other people around you.
So it's a tough time.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, yeah. So it's, it's tough in any way. But I think you're right that it does start in those, like in those middle elementary years, you know, and we can certainly talk about that as well because I think many parents that will be listening will also be interested from that perspective as well.
But we.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: No, absolutely.
Yeah. No, I was just going to say we do. Our team does a fair amount of school based work, working with schools to deliver programs to students in schools or parents, you know, workshops, teacher in services. And we launched social skills programming in our clinic last fall. And we specifically targeted that third to fifth grade age group because so many schools in the city asked us for it explicitly. They were like, our third and fourth grades are like a hot mess socially.
So, you know, I think, I'm just saying it's helpful, I think, to know that as a parent too. So if you're, you know, third, fourth, fifth grader is coming home and like, you know, upset about it, like as a parent, you know, that's kind of. This is part of it. Right. Like you're in it. This is something that's happening for a lot of kids and families and it's not your child specifically. Right. That there's something going on with.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. That is actually really helpful to know because I think sometimes we do think about these things as something that's going to happen later, like in middle school or high school. That's like, we probably remember those years the most as far as our own social rejections and social, you know, changes and everything. But I think, you know, knowing that it does start earlier, that it is very common in those third, fourth, fifth grade years. Yeah. So very helpful to know that that does start earlier and that, you know, we can also give our children tools. I believe that if they have the tools earlier on, it does make it easier as they transition to those even like more stinging kinds of middle experiences.
Okay, so we're going to go ahead and jump into our questions. Nina, thank you so much again for ahead of time for your, for your insight and wisdom on these questions that have been from families.
So the, the first question is just the classic, right. And it's kind of the follow up really to our first, to our episode of the version of this for the Preschool Age, which is so your daughter finds out she's not invited to the birthday party, that, quote, every girl in seventh grade is going to accept her end quote. What is the best way to respond to this? And should you call the mom and ask why? Especially if you happen to be super close friends with her since kindergarten.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: That is so hard. I would guess every parent of a middle schooler out there has had or will have a moment like this. Right. I mean, I think the first piece of it. And I know you and I have talked about this before, but is like taking a deep breath, ourselves as a parent. Right. Because in that moment, you know, our automatic instinct is going to be to protect our kid. Right? Like that's, you know, as a parent, when we're emotionally attuned, it's hard for us to experience our kids distress and suffering. And that's a moment that we know. I mean, we've all been there, We've all been left out of something. It does not feel good.
Right. So taking a deep breath and trying to respond in a way that, you know, is helpful instead of more inflammatory or more upsetting for your kid or complicating the situation in some kind of way. Yeah. So, I mean, I think first of all, like, it's totally fine to validate your kid's emotional experience to say, like, wow, that sounds like that's fine. Really, you know, disappointing, Right. Or upsetting for you. Fill me in, you know, getting curious, like, how did you hear about, you know, like, tell me what happened. Right. Getting the backstory and then I would not intervene as a parent. Right. Like, for a middle schooler, we're trying to help our kids learn and build the skills that they need to be successful socially and in. In their relationships with other kids. Right. And so to be like, okay, well, so, you know, how did you respond? Trying to get into, like, what's driving your child's reaction to that? And again, validating that experience of being excluded without being like, oh, that's so mean, or, oh, you know, wow, that's really terrible. They included everyone but you. Right? Because those kinds of reactions are going to kind of fan the flame. Right? Then your child's going to be even more upset about the kid that get, you know, being the kid that didn't get invited, more upset with the person who did the inviting. And really, you know, I mean, let's face it, this is a pretty typical experience that there's. There are always times that we're going to be left out of something. Right.
And so maybe even doing some collaborative problem solving with your child. Okay, like, I hear you. You'd rather be doing this on Saturday. Hey. Right. You didn't get invited. Is there something else that we could do together that might make that a better night? Right.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: A little bit myself and, you know, just tried to make like a special girls night and, you know, do something really fun and watch a movie or do like some spa or whatever, or, you know, just maybe, you know, with my son, like, let's go, you know, let's go play mini golf, you know, let's go do something.
Right.
And I try to remind myself too, in those moments that every, that that is also an opportunity. Like one more night that I have with my child before they're, well and they're like, you know, not hanging out with me on Friday or Saturday night and just to, I don't know, use that opportunity as a time to just build a connection and. But yeah, but to make it really special and maybe we invite somebody, you know, outside of school over that night.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: You know, I love that idea too. So you're still facilitating like some kind of social connectedness, social relationship. Right. And you know, I mean, I think the other thing that you're doing there is you're teaching a skill right? Around like self consolation, right? Like what happens when you're disappointed, right. Are you going to sit home and feel bad? Right. Or are you going to, you know, what you're doing there is, you're teaching your child like, okay, we can have the feeling about an experience, right. Things can happen to us that don't feel good, that feel disappointing. And there are things that we can do to work with that, right. Even if we can't fix the thing itself, like wave the magic wand, get you invited, you know, before you ever even knew that you were excluded so that you would feel great and everything would be fine. Right. Like, no, okay, this happened. You're having a feeling about it. That's cool. Is there some other way that we can work with that? Right. Is skill building in a way that's going to really set your child up for resilience over the course of time?
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But can we talk about that a little bit more? The, the magic wand waving? Because I think so much that is our instinct as parents is to want our child to never have this experience. Right.
And if we could in an ideal, you know, could we, if we lived in an ideal situation where we had everybody, like everyone at our school invited or whatever it was. Like, I think sometimes that can so be our instinct. And can we talk about how even if we could do that, that wouldn't be what would be best for our child?
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Right. I mean, it's that experience of challenge that gives our kids the skills to navigate it. Right? So it's the experience of being excluded that gives them one, the sense of empathy around exclusion, Right. That helps them be more inclusive, maybe more kind to other kids than they might have been if they didn't have that experience themselves.
And it's also, you know, an opportunity to learn how to navigate those situations that are socially challenging. Right. Because like, you go out in the real world and honestly, even in as an adult, sometimes I'm like, whoa, that was like, what do I do with the thing that you just said to me? Like, how do I manage that? And if the first time that your kid comes to those interactions, like after they've left the warm, cozy nest of home, like, they're not going to have the skills to be able to cope. So you want them to have those challenging experiences when you are there to help coach, help support, help scaffold skillful responding. Right. And they can learn that, like while you're there as sort of the supportive buffer. And then they have those skills that they can deploy when they are out there and applying solo as an adult or, you know, college adult and beyond.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. But to answer that second part of the question, you know, and I think there is that temptation, especially if you have been friends with that parent for.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: So long and you're like, what happened?
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Or like, not even just what happened, but like, hey, invite my kids. Yeah, right.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Like, make this happen. Yeah, make this happen. Fix this. Right, Absolutely.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Hiding that ins and saying, you know what this is? This is a learning experience. This is a growth.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: And, and I think also one of the ways to sort of normalize this experience too, is talking about how, you know, reminding your child, like, oh, do you remember your birthday party? Like, how, you know, there was one child you didn't invite and there was so and so. And it wasn't necessarily that you didn't like them, but maybe they didn't, you know, there was something that you were doing that, you know, didn't feel like would be really fun. Like there's another way to talk about it. Right?
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Absolutely right. To normalize. And I love that, like going back and, and it's, it's almost as part of perspective taking is like remembering, like, okay, you've actually been in this situation before. You've made the decision about who to include and who not to include. Was it because you didn't like them or like, no, there were these other reasons that were driving your decision making here. Right. And that could be true here. Probably is true here.
So, you know, giving. I think that really does help, like normalize and depersonalize it and remembering that as parents too. Right. It's probably not that your kid was actively rejected or being excluded here. And also, even if that was the case, it's not helpful. Jump to that conclusion because it makes us more reactive. It's not helpful. And, you know, how we're interacting with our. Our child there. But, you know, I think so much of effective parenting is slowing down to have those conversations with our kids around, you know, why things happen and sort of, what's the normal course of things happening? Like, oh, hey, this also happened to me when I was a kid. I remember when I got excluded from a birthday party and it felt terrible. I really. I get it. Right. And that relationship, then I, you know, this is all going to depend on the individual circumstances. But, hey, I went on to, like, actually stay friends with that person for 30 years, and here we are now as adult. Right. Like, there's bumps in relationships. Yeah.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: And I think often the way that we respond, you know, like you said before, could maybe change because if we do respond in that way of, oh, my gosh, I can't believe she did that. What's wrong with her? Why would she do something like that? So mean. That's so rude. You know, that's probably going to have a less and less chance that there will be reconciliation.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Instead of giving, you know, that child the benefit of the doubt that, you know, maybe it was mostly her soccer friends, or maybe it was mostly, you know, a group that had, you know, done something in the past and they wanted to do it again together. Or maybe, you know, I actually this kind of leads to another question, which is how to help your child know there are many reasons people are unfairly excluded. And that they don't like me sometimes is not one of them. But, you know, this sounds like a parent who understands that, but maybe their child is coming from that perspective of, like, they don't like me, it's because they don't like me. So how would you maybe work with that child in that case to help them build a broader perspective?
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of my favorite strategies with kids, and we do. Our team does a lot of this kind of stuff in. In our direct work with kids and teenagers, too. But it's always more helpful for someone else to come to their own conclus decision than it is for you to tell them. Right. So for us as parents to be like, oh, no, it's fine. It's not because she doesn't like you. You know, it's gonna be harder for a kid to, like, swallow than to be like, okay, well, let's sit down. You know, I'm just wondering, like, what are all the possible reasons, like, you Know, this could have happened. And maybe you toss them. Like I could think of, maybe it's her soccer team, right. Maybe the venue had a headcount limit. Or like her parents said, you can only invite three people or. But lips come up with a list of possible explanations. Right. And sure, one of those possible explanations, you could be right. It's possible she doesn't like you, but like, wow, look at all of these other explanations that we came up with. Do we know for a fact, like which one of these it is? And so really kind of trying to get your child involved and collaboratively brainstorming around it. You know, I mean, I think a tricky thing is middle schoolers and high schoolers, you know, the part of typical adolescent development is starting to turn towards your friends and away from your parents. Right. So your kid may well be eye rolling at you through all of this. Right. And that's okay. Some of it is probably still getting in. Right. And, and follow their lead about when they're ready to be, to be done that having that conversation.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: That idea of, instead of rushing in with the. Of course, course it's not because they don't, they don't like you. And that's, you know, I'm sure it's because of this or I'm sure it's because of that. That's, you know, probably not going to resonate or feel, you know, they're probably going to tune that out versus like, let's, you know, maybe that's it. Maybe, you know, maybe that's it.
It's possible that she doesn't like you, but like, there could be other reasons. You know, let's, let's think of some reasons. And yeah, I love that idea.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah. What are the other possibilities? And I feel like the other thing that you're touching on here too. Rebecca goes back to like our own emotion regulation as parents too, and how our responses and reactions on our kids, such powerful messages. So it's like if we get worked up about it and upset that the kid was excluded or like visibly like align with that towards our kids. Right. It sends such a strong message to the kid around like, oh, ah, that probably is true that they like me. They left me out on purpose. Right. If my mom is getting so upset about this, I should probably be upset too.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Oh my God.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: And yeah, and it's really hard. And I think it's particularly hard, you know, the first time this happens to your child. I know that like, for example, when my daughter was in sixth grade, I felt like I Made a lot of these kinds of mistakes.
And I love Lisa d' Amore's book Untangled. And I felt like that was really helpful for me in finding that more objective voice that was, of course, more natural for me as a parent of a young child. But I think for me personally, I think it does get harder to remain neutral when, you know, they're at an age that you can remember so tangibly. I think it does trigger parents and reminds us of things. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, really trying to find that neutral voice and not overreacting or, you know, responding in a way that sends, like, a message that this is a horrible, horrible thing that should have never happened.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Right. And that is. I mean, I just want to name. It's a tall ass. Right. Pretty much every parent I know is triggered by this kind of social stuff for kids. And it makes sense. Right. Human beings are biologically hardwired for connection. Right. I mean, back in, like, prehistoric times is like, your connection with your community that kept you alive. Right. And we have the same, like, systems that are driving the bus now, even though, you know, our life circumstances are so different. And so this stuff, it is triggering. And you're right, it takes you back to your own, like, middle school social trauma.
And we are most likely to be effective in supporting our kids and helping. Helping them thrive if we can manage our own stuff. Right. If we can pay attention to our emotions, if we can, like, hold, like, the ship level and try to respond out of a place of kind of emotional equanimity instead of. Of that reactivity around it.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And also, like, like we said before, it's more likely that your child can kind of bounce back and that relationship could bounce back and recover if they see the. As kind of a small problem or a small hiccup versus, like, problem or huge, you know, break in the friendship that's completely in, you know, irreparable.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I want to circle back for just a moment, Rebecca, because I realized we, like, kind of, like, swept through that question of, like, do you ask your friends that you've known for so many years about why their daughter excluded your daughter? And I think the answer to that, from my perspective, really depends on the closeness of your relationship with that other parent. If you are super close, I don't think there's anything wrong with being like, hey, you know, heard that this happened. And, you know, if there's something that would be helpful for me to know about, like, what's going on with the girls like, or how my daughter is showing up. Like, please let me know. Right. But I would probably only do that if you're really extremely close to that other parent. Like, I wouldn't do that to a casual acquaintance. And generally, I think this stuff, you know, again, it's kind of like, what message are we sending our kids around, how big of a deal this is? You know, if we're intervening and like seeking out the other parent, well, that makes it a bigger deal, right? When really we want to send our kids the message that, hey, this kind of stuff happens, it, you know, sucks when it happens. Right. Nobody likes this feeling, but it's okay. This is part of life. It's fine. You're going to figure it out, Right. Like, I'm confident that you're going to be able to handle this. Right. And let me help you probably solve about, like, how to make it better on this end. Right. For you and your experience versus, like, fixing the problem.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I like that nuances if you, you know, if you are really close to the other parent and, you know, if you do maybe see them in passing, you know, not necessarily being afraid to, you know, like to afraid to bring it up, but maybe just saying it from the perspective and that nuance of not like, why didn't she invite my daughter? Do you think she could?
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Now.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: But more from that perspective of like, hey, you know, if there's anything going on between the girls or between the boys that, you know, if there's. I love that, like, is there a way that my daughter or my son could show up in this relationship?
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah, like, how could. Is there a way that they could be showing up differently that would be helpful for them or for me to know about. Yeah, I love that.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Just like, is there a way they could be showing up differently? Because, you know, that's the thing is like our kid. And I think maybe that's another really important point to remind ourselves as parents is that our kids are going to make mistakes.
Not just the other child that may be, you know, you know, that may be excluding or that may be being unfair. Like, our, our kid could have been really annoying. Like, could have done something that, you know, the other, the other girls didn't like or the other guys didn't like. And that's, I mean, I think reminding ourselves of that, that, you know, they're all going to be growing here and making a ton of mistakes during this stage. And so sometimes when you do make a mistake.
Yeah. It might lead to a little bit of a riff in a friendship. And that's okay. That's also really normal. And our kids are going to make mistakes socially during this time.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's part of life. Right. It's like having that growth mindset around the way that we learn. And actually the way that we lear best is by messing up. Right. And then we course correct. And actually that feedback from other people around us is kind of a critical part of the course correction. Right. Is like the knowing, like, hey, this didn't actually turn out in a way that I felt good about. Right. Or in a way that, you know, the people I care about, like, responded to in a way that was helpful. Right. So how do I do this differently from here and how do I grow? Right. So that's, that's part of that. That skill development.
And again, you're right as like part of typical development. Like, no one is going to navigate all of this perfectly and skillfully in the same way that as parents, we're not going to navigate it all perfectly or skillfully. Right.
[00:27:22] Speaker A: And there's room to grow as parents. I mean, even if you're listening to this now and going, oh my gosh, I've already made these mistakes, I mean, that was. I. I felt like I learned a lot, you know, even just like moving from sixth grade to seventh grade. And I think, you know, it's. It's never too late to sort of shift your response a little bit and to.
To find something that, that could be more helpful, that can make the problem smaller instead of bigger, like all those kinds of things.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Kind of leads to another interesting question that we have, which is that if you're a says, my daughter made some mistakes early into middle school, as all kids do in this stage, But a year later, she's still being excluded and not accepted in not only her social group, but the group of other girls that weren't even involved in this original problem.
So, yeah, I guess, you know, how do you. How do you support when maybe your child has grown and has learned, but maybe her friends aren't ready to, you know, to do that? Forgiveness.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really difficult. Right. And I think there are probably a couple of ways that I would try to tackle. I mean, no magic wand, right?
Yeah, I bet. I think a couple of things that I would consider trying. I mean, one of those would be like working with your child around, okay, how are you responding in these moments? And how can you show up in those conversations, maybe even even proactively and be like, hey, you Know, like, I want you to know I heard and really appreciated your feedback that that wasn't cool behavior. Right. And I'm, I really am trying to show up differently and I understand if you don't believe that, but I just want you to know that. Right.
So working with your child around, like, how can it's self advocacy, right? In those peer interactions and how can you respond to the things that kids are, are saying to you? Right? Because on the spot, you know, and this is especially true for kids and, and teenagers, but even for us to some extent as adults, it can be so hard on the spot to think about, like, how do I respond to this kind of stuff, Right. And so if you can then sort of rewind, replay, practice the response with your child that they can use if and when things come up again, that's helpful, right? So that's one prong and then the other prongs that I'd be thinking about. I mean, what you're describing here sounds like kind of a big group dynamic, right? Like maybe even grade wide and depending on how many kids most schools have a school counselor or a socio emotional learning support, that I'd be like, hey, you know, like again, as a parent, you're not swooping into fix, you're like alerting them that this is a dynamic that your daughter is really struggling with. Right. And is there like, what is the plan for intervention at a class wide or grade wide kind of level? Are there any supports that they could offer this group of kids kind of navigating through what sounds like a really tricky social dynamic? And then the third piece would be like, can I be trying to support your daughter in building relationships, like one on one. Right. And what I mean by that is like, how can you connect with other families? Maybe have someone over for dinner as a family or have the, you know, like, are there ways that you can schedule activities for your daughter and one other kid that might be receptive as a way to try to start rebuilding some of those activities again in collaboration with your daughter? Right. You're not doing this top down, like, I'm gonna fix this. Right. But to be like, okay, well who are the people that seem likely to be more receptive and how can we start maybe trying to get some traction there? Yeah.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: And I think that the other important point there is that kind of finding the nuance with your, with your child, because although they may feel like everybody is holding this graduate grant, there are very likely, you know, people out that, you know, have never even heard of this. I mean, if they're at a bigger school.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: I mean, obviously social media and all of that, like, it's, it's, it is a little bit different now. And, you know, it's something that, you know, can be a real struggle, obviously. But I think, you know, also just reminding your child that there are probably, there are other, you know, people in the, the school that they could connect with and kind of going through those names with them or going through, you know, some ideas from, you know, different classes that they might have and is there anybody in this class or. Oh, you know, you're doing drama. Is there anybody there? Right. And so, I mean, the same with like, everybody was invited. I always find out, like, well, yeah, not quite.
[00:32:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: So I think, you know, helping them to find that nuance of like, everybody is holding this grudge versus, like, well, there may be a group that feels like a dominant group that is holding a grudge, but is it everybody? And is there someone else that you could connect with or like you said, maybe, you know, trying to find that one on one connection with somebody in that group that feels a little bit more open or receptive and could also be really helpful. But yeah, getting the school counselor involved and even asking, you know, another tactic there is asking your child to reach out to the counselor themselves.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: Yes. Speaking of self advocacy. Yes.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Like, what have you tried, you know, if you're feeling like this, like, what have you tried? Have you tried talking to like a teacher that you really trust? Have you tried talking to a school counselor? Right. Like, and, and seeing if they, you know, if they could even do that?
[00:33:14] Speaker B: You're right. That would be so much better than doing it yourself as a parent. Right. Having your kid, teaching them that skill or giving them the practice and that skill of self advocacy. Yeah.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: And again, something I've learned, right. Like, over years of parenting, my son started in middle school, I was doing more of those emails, and now, you know, I'm, I'm trying to do less and less and trying to learn that if it can come from them, even like with a teacher, that if they can, you know, schedule a meeting to talk to a teacher about a grade that they think was fair or about interaction, you know, like, you know, sometimes they need support, sometimes they don't. But, you know, starting with that, I think can be really helpful and something I've learned over the years for sure.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and again, there's a powerful message there, right. Like, I am your mom and I'm confident that you've got this right. Like you can handle this. And I'm here if you need help and support. Right?
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Totally, totally. And we talked about that in our last episode around, you know, building independence in these years. And when we see our children as capable, they see themselves as capable. And when we see, you know, needing our constant support and guidance and, you know, then they see themselves as, you know, dependent on that. So yeah, huge, huge learning curve there as your child moves through this stage.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: And as they're, you know, like you said, we now is the time where we want them to, to build these skills and that confidence to be able to navigate these skills. It is not a time where they need rescuing.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: Right.
So true. Yeah. As somebody told me once that parenting is the only job, that the job description changes like year by year, week by week, even day by day.
So true.
You know, and so like, you know, I think we have to give ourselves some grace as parents and like remembering like we're coming to the table with this long term goal of launching a resilient, independent kid. And how are we taking action, you know, in a way that's going to be in alignment with that and giving them more opportunity to, you know, exercise their wings as they get older and kind of get into this stuff. Right.
For responding. Yeah.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, okay, well, I think one of our last questions here is my son, he used to have a lot of friends at his school. He got injured and can't play the sport he loves. And his friends seem to have moved on without him. They don't invite him to things anymore. And I get that he isn't on the team, but how worried should I be that he's more isolated in 8th grade than he was in 7th? I also think he's slower to go through puberty. And so maybe also. So they may also be having different interests than him now. Any tips there?
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Oh, poor guy. I mean, that's so hard. Right. In terms of the, the physical injury on top of like the potentially shifting, like social sands. Right. Of maturity differentially. I mean, I think, you know, this is another place where I'd get curious with your kid around, like, hey, how are you doing? Right. Like noticing like this has been a really tough thing. Right. Or it seems like this has been a really tough thing. How are you doing? And seeing if you can open that door for direct communication even. I'm noticing you're spend more time solo than you have in the past because you're not playing sports. Right. How does that feel for you? Is there anything that we could do that, you know, is there anything you would want to do about that, right? Any way is that anything that you wish were different, because maybe it's, you know, figuring out, like, some other way for him to connect with friends that he would have seen in the context of sports. Maybe it's, you know, enrolling him in an online thing where he has the opportunity to connect with people, learning something that way.
And, you know, also naming the fact this is a period in time, right?
Like, this is, you know, having an injury like this that takes you out of things that you love really stinks, right? And we know that, like, this is going to come to an end, and how can we plan for what comes next?
And I think, you know, the developmental transitions and differences and interests and so on, that's, you know, hopefully part of an ongoing conversation, too, where you're. You're naming. There are these shifts and changes for people socially, and I think puberty and development, they do play a huge role in that, right. In terms of, like, interests and, you know, that transition to being interested in other people romantically. Right. Comes at different phases for different kids in a way that can complicate social dynamics and friendships and, you know, kind of what people are interested in talking about or how they're interested in spending their time, but really trying to normalize that for your kids and being like, hey, this happens, right? There are these differences. Are there people that you feel like you have more in common with than the people that you had been hanging out with?
[00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exploring some of those. Maybe friends that, you know, maybe going back to second or third grade, you know, kids that maybe the child connected to back then. And, you know, can we spark up any of those friendships, maybe, you know, no, absolutely.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: You know, I mean, actually, this makes me think, Rebecca, about something that I think is applicable both to the last question and maybe to this question, to, you know, the last question about the. The daughter being fluted because of some behavior that she did early in. In. In middle school. You know, I think there's so much research that says that, you know, I mean, obviously as parents, we would love for our kids to, you know, have a big group of friends, be, you know, accepted and well liked in every context. But all of the research that we have suggests that actually, like, the most important thing is one friend, right? It's like, whether or not kids have one friend is what differentiates between, like, long outcomes and long term, you know, more challenging outcomes. And so I think as a parent, I actually find that really reassuring.
Right. Is to know, okay, there are going to be like shifts and changes. And as long as my kid has one friend. Right. Then like that, you know, as far as, like the research on long term outcomes, that's what's going to make the difference. Right. And so in the, you know, the middle school daughter suggestion too, I mean, that friend could also be in other contexts. Right. Like enroll your kid in club sport or in a, you know, some kind of extracurricular with a different peer group where they have the opportunity to make friends outside of school. Right. For a kid that's not doing sports because of an injury, like, okay, well, what other activities are there?
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: That might offer some level of social connection, even if it's not with the same kids that they would have hung with during that, that sport. Right.
Just to like give that opportunity for exploration of different kinds of connections and relationships, different people. Right. That might not have been the people they were seeing every day. Right. Yeah.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: And that is, that is so helpful, I think, for parents to know that that one friend is such an important from, you know, just from a developmental perspective, from a buffering perspective, that it doesn't need to be that they have this whole big group of friends. Right.
I think that's, that's, that is really helpful. And you know, maybe it's a neighborhood friend. Right. Maybe it's a friend, you know, outside of school, like you said. And I think the other really strong thing coming from the research is around how important it is for children to have friends outside of their school communities too.
[00:40:57] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: And so, yeah, trying to build some friendships that are, you know, a little less wrapped up in the social dynamics of middle school.
So, so, yeah, absolutely.
But yeah, this is kind of connected to the last question, but I think the, the last question here is when should you be worried and seek support for your child around the social dynamics and when do you have the mentality that this is completely normal and they're building resiliency and learning invaluable life skills. Right. So how do you know? I think how do you know when to worry? Could it ever be problematic or is it always worth, like. Yeah, I'm just curious your perspective there.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm gonna, you know, give us a disclaimer. I'm a psychologist, so I'm probably like, you know, like I'm clearly pretty pro therapy as an option. Right.
But I think ultimately the answer here is it relies on communication. Right. With your child and trying to keep that door open of, you know, and again, this is harder going into adolescence. Kids want to tell us less. Right. Even as, you know, my kids are.
I have, you know, on the brink of nine in two weeks. And then a six year old and my nine year old is already to the point where he's like, man, you know, the times he talks to me are like right before bed first thing in the morning and when I'm driving him somewhere in the car. And the rest of the time not at all. Right.
But I really, really try to make an effort to do things, to foster that communication. One is to turn towards him when he wants to talk and to listen, even if it's. And you know, almost always aside from the car is like at a time where I'm like trying to do something else. Right. Like trying to get him into bed, trying to get the day underway. Right. Like, but like that piece is. It is such a priority for me that, that, that he knows that I care about what he has to say and I'm here to listen. That I really do intentionally try to drop everything and listen at the times that he's listening, willing to talk. And then two, I also really try to make a point of underreacting as a parent to like, especially mistakes, but like, you know, stuff in general so that he feels like it's okay to come and talk to me and to bounce things off me, especially the hard stuff. Right. And again, like those, you know, the more that you can set the stage for that going into adolescence, you know, the more likely you are to have a kid that actually will tell you if there's something wrong or something to be concerned about. About. Wow. And that's what ideally you want, right? Yeah. Yes.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: I love that. Can we just say that one more time for everybody? Like, the more that we underreact, the more our children will continue to open up to us. Right.
Especially with mistakes they've made or, you know, things that have happened at school, if they've gotten in trouble or something. Right. The more that we underreact and maybe could you just like, quickly, what would that look like as far as, like, what would that interaction look like? Let's say our child does say something.
I mean, we're talking about social dynamics here. So like, if they did say something like, oh, you know, so and so, you know, things I'm annoying because I'm always like, you know, making fun of them in math class or, you know, something like that. And I, you know, if they do open up, up to us about maybe one of their social mistakes or, you know, in the case of the child that, you know, did say something and got you know, was accused of gossiping or whatever it was. So how. Yeah, what's an example? Or maybe what's an example of overreacting?
[00:44:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, totally, totally. So, like, our inclination as parents is to be like, oh, well, you know, you can't be kind of bossy, so, like, you know, you shouldn't, like, you know, this is. People don't like it when you do that. We've told you that before. You know, you, you know, so, like, that you really want to, like, try to steer clear even if it's true, right? Maybe especially if it's true.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: Well, and I love. Yeah, and I love that. That example, because I think you're hitting on, you know, we. We know our children, we know that they do have, you know, some things that maybe are annoying to us or maybe that we know that we've talked to them about before. Right. And so not jumping in with the, like, kind of I told you so approach. Right?
[00:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. And instead getting curious. Right. Like, huh, how did that feel when your friend said that to you?
What are your thoughts about that? Like, do you think she's right? Right. Is there anything like, you know, that resonated about that for you? So, again, kind of like trying to get curious instead of, like, freaking out, getting activated and leaning in to try to, you know, try to fix. Right. Try to give the feedback. And it's so hard because we care so much about the outcome, outcomes for our kids. We care so much about how they do, how they show up in the world. Right. And we're actually more likely to be able to be effective in shaping those outcomes if we can kind of keep our own cool as a parent, approach things with curiosity and an even keel instead of, like, a lecture.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: And we think that that's, like, the most influential in the moment is to, like, call them out exactly on what they did and tell them what. What. Why they shouldn't have done it and what. What they should do instead. But really, you know, you know, as a psychologist and you know that. That it's actually the opposite. Right. That or we can remain curious, remain open, and help them, of course, learn for themselves and think for themselves about some of those things. It's great that your child is sharing that with you. Right?
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And you can even name that, too, Rebecca, to be like, oh, I really appreciate. Like, you're filling me in on that. It sounds like it might have been really hard. Hard to hear, like, what was that like for you?
Right. Because again, we're, like, trying to, you know, Foster this communication, make it more likely that our kid is going to come back to us in the future with similar things that come up. Right.
So hard. So.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, if you're out there listening and you do feel like. And if you're local in San Francisco and you do feel like your child may need some more support socially, can you tell us a little bit more about. About, like the groups? I know you have some amazing groups that you offer for, for this age and, and younger, I think, but yeah, can you tell us a little bit about how they might plug into some of those programs that you offer?
[00:47:29] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. No, I really appreciate that. I mean, middle school tweens and teens in particular, again, this kind of stuff tends to come up a lot. Right. And you know, I mean, kind of going back to that question quickly of how do you know when your kid needs help? I mean, I would say when they ask for it, when you notice a difference in their mood or their functioning. Right. You know, or if you're noticing that they're not listening to you, that things are becoming more difficult, having an outside party sometimes can be really helpful there. But yeah, we have at practice, we have both individual support around this kind of stuff and also groups for elementary schoolers and middle schoolers. We have a middle school social dynamics group that is absolutely wonderful, led by two of our staff who are longtime middle school people. But it's working on how do you, you know, how do you manage difficult dynamics when they come up? Because they inevitably do, right? Like, how do you manage tension and conflict with friends? How do you manage delivering feedback, receiving feedback? How do you keep your cool in difficult social situations? Right. I mean, I mean, imagine if we.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: Had that, right, that training as a middle schooler. Like that sounds amazing.
[00:48:42] Speaker B: No, totally. Right. And also, like, how do you like, watch and respect your own boundaries, right. And meet your own needs, work with your own stuff that's coming up. So all of that, we have a session of that group running in August. Over the summer, we run groups on kind of a more intensive, like in the course of a single week just because we know families, travel schedules are tough. And we also have a group for third to fifth grade students identified as girls around kind of some of those same skills, but titrated to like a third, fourth, fifth grade level.
So yeah, families are welcome to our website is www.practice san francisco.com. or if you've got questions, you're welcome to reach out to our intake coordinator, Miranda, who is wonderful@helloractice san francisco.com. so we'd be happy to be helpful in whatever way we can. Great.
[00:49:32] Speaker A: And we'll put those links in our show notes and also on our website that has the full list of our podcast episodes and you can find all the links to the resources that we talk about in our show notes is there.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: Wonderful.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: So thank you so much Nina for coming on.
This was such a wonderful conversation and I know it's going to be really helpful to families that are listening and that have taken the time to to hear some of these insights and ideas. So thank you so much for sharing us.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: No, absolutely. My pleasure. Rebecca. It is always such a joy to chat and connect with you. You and I really appreciate the opportunity to. Yeah. To chat today.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks.
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Shout out to my teenager Joey for continuing to follow his passions in piano and music production and for creating the music for this podcast.
