Episode Transcript
Rebecca Walsh (00:58)
All right. Well, welcome back everybody. We have a very important topic here and we are so, so thankful to have Konika Wong with us back on the show. I wish that it was for a different reason, right?
Konika Wong (01:14)
Thanks for having me.
Rebecca Walsh (01:16)
I wish that we didn't have to keep coming back to this, but at the same time, it's like it's so important that we know that this this is not a one time conversation that we're having with our children, right?
Konika Wong (01:28)
Yes, a hundred percent. So here's our teachable moment and we're gonna dive in.
Rebecca Walsh (01:33)
Yeah. and of course we're talking about some questions that have come up recently from parents around this topic of the Cornell Seven and really the Cornell 57, right?
Konika Wong (01:46)
Great.
Rebecca Walsh (01:48)
Because, you know, there's the seven and then there's the other fifty that were on that that chain of texts and didn't stop anything, didn't say anything, didn't stand up.
so we'll talk about both of those things, but I think we're we're focus our focus today is on the questions that have come in from parents on very young children, from two ranging from like two to eight. and just how to use this. not necessarily like we're not necessarily talking to the kids about what happened at that age, right?
But it really informs us as parents on like, okay, how do I empower my children to to be upstanders, to know how to say listen to other other people and to listen to and to be informed about their own their own bodies and their own choices. So I think we'll dive into all of that, but I will say
that for you know, for both of us we have the older kids and you know, I know you have fifteen year old daughter, I have a fourteen year old daughter, seventeen year old son. And the thing that I keep thinking about for me is like I bet all of these kids, if you had asked them at this younger age, would they ever do something like this? Like, can they ever see themselves? Like the answer would have probably been like a hard no.
Konika Wong (03:15)
And like I was saying, I I think that even the twenty year olds would say a hard no. And so now we're just leveling this, realizing that these frequent small conversations starting from two go all the way up to twenty and we just keep them going.
Rebecca Walsh (03:31)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. so important the work that you do as a body literacy specialist. And I know the the books and we're we're excited to dive into that. But there are things that we can do at this very young age to empower our children. so so yeah, so let's dive in with a couple questions that we've received.
so yeah, I think a lot of parents are thinking about this topic now and they're wondering from a young age, you know, how can I empower my boys to be in a place to make different, very different decisions? How can I empower my girls?
I mean, when you're thinking about this, and I know this is your expertise, right? Like this is what you do as a body literacy specialist. I know you've written books on this. so where do parents start? Like let's say they haven't really introduced this language yet or they haven't talked much about this with their their children. where do parents of young children start with like what is the best way to teach our children about consent at this early age?
Konika Wong (04:34)
I the easiest place to start is with a a kid's book.
Rebecca Walsh (04:38)
Amazing.
Konika Wong (04:40)
And so my I'm gonna just tell you my two favorites, but I have a stack here of five that we can talk about too. But the first one is yes, no, a first conversation about consent by Megan Madison. this one is great. What I love about this one is that it names all of the body parts.
The parts that we traditionally call our private parts. I prefer to use the language middle parts because I prefer to teach kids that their entire body, from their hair down to their toes, it's all very personal. And, you know, we're empowering them to listen to their intuition about when they need to speak up, about, you know, something feeling uncomfortable.
and then of course, like I've written the children's book, How to Tame a Tickle Monster, a first book about body safety.
And I also, just like the other one, did mention naming the parts as an empowering piece. but there's another added thing that it's our introducing our personal space bubble. And so this was a social emotional lesson that I would teach in preschool and kindergarten. But the idea is simple. It's that we all have a personal space bubble, it's invisible and it can be small or it can be big. Some days we might really want to hug.
Other days we don't. and that we decide ultimately. So this idea of introducing, you know, that and there's another piece to the personal space bubble. It can dictate if we want that hug or not. but it can someone can invade our personal space bubble with the tone of their voice if the tone feels unsafe. Or even with like body language, something that they do, maybe the way that they're looking at us.
It's making it feel like they're invading our personal space bubble. another thing that I included in how to tame a tickle monster is that when we learn about some of our parts like our penis and our vulva, it might make us feel a little bit uncomfortable. Sometimes we'll giggle or we'll laugh. And then I always tell kids that
That is actually their body keeping them safe. So
Rebecca Walsh (07:00)
Mm.
Konika Wong (07:00)
sometimes there's cues that we feel uncomfortable, like nervous laughter, or feeling just like a feeling in our tummy that feels like icky when we talk about some of these things. And I always just tell them, listen to your body, your body's protecting you. And you know, so when we say penis or we say vulva, or I have a penis model and a vulva model that I hold up, that usually
There's a lot of giggling. Yeah. It's always like perfect because I say, you know, sometimes to protect ourselves, we laugh because we feel weird about talking about this stuff.
but it is really nice to have.
Books and then proactive conversations about the exceptions like helmets, seat belts. when we cross the street, you may not want to hold my hand, but I'm gonna keep you safe.
Rebecca Walsh (07:51)
the next question is really
actually something that I hear quite often
and it comes from a mom of a four-year-old girl, and she says, What happens when my daughter says, My body, my choice, or I'm the boss of my body, and which I love, but I'm trying to get her into the bath or I'm trying to get her dressed, and she's saying, I'm the boss of my body.
So how do we help?
Children understand yes, they're the boss of their bodies and at the same time, we have to get dressed and we have to do things.
Konika Wong (08:28)
So
again,
my favorite starter book is called Yes No, a First Conversation About Consent by Megan Madison. And there's specifically a section where it says, it doesn't always feel like I'm the boss of my body. My grown-ups make some choices for me because it's their job to keep me safe and healthy. And then it says, What are some choices that grown-ups make for you and your body? sometimes I don't like the choices that grown-ups make for me and I feel upset.
It feels better when grown-ups ask first or let me know what's happening and why. And the pages specifically, they're putting helmets on. But of course, like you said, it can be seat belts. But if we're proactively reading this when we're not in the heated scenario, then you know we have some background and we can say it's just like we talked about, but we've proactively planted a seed that when we're learning I'm the boss of my body.
That there are clear exceptions and just the why behind it and you know, that we are respecting them ul ultimately.
Rebecca Walsh (09:30)
Yeah.
I love that. that's a great book. And yeah, can you hold that up for for those that are yes. That's and yeah, I think that is such an important thing to have in your back pocket as a tool as a parent, right? To say, okay, well, we've we've had this conversation, but we've also talked about these times when, you know, parents have to make decisions for you because, you know, and and I even like talk
about developmentally, right? brain development, that part of your brain that's able to make good decisions hasn't quite formed yet. So we have to sometimes make decisions for you and that kind of thing. But the respectful way, you know, giving a choice. And I mean we have we have some strategies that talk about like gaining cooperation. And I I call it like the five So you make it a choice, make it a game, make it silly.
make smaller so break it into very small steps make it a song. And I think those are just, your preschool teacher strategies there, but that those strategies can be used in those moments to help a child cooperate and kind of get to that place where they really want to cooperate, where they're
being involved in that, not necessarily being distracted away from it, but being involved in that, process of doing something that is tricky, you know.
Konika Wong (10:54)
I love that. Love that framing and just allowing more time. A lot of these moments happen where, you know, we're in a rush. And so those M's that you just mentioned, if we can also make time to to, you know, to listen to them and, you know, see where they're at.
Rebecca Walsh (11:15)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it is hard when we're rushed, right? But I also like to remind parents that when you when you do it in a rushed way that creates a major meltdown in tantrum, it's probably actually not gonna save you any time. so really to think about your time as like how do I front end this conflict with just, you know, yes, a couple, maybe an extra minute or two on that front end.
But if that saves me a 20 minute meltdown on the back end, it's gonna be a a good time investment. But it's very hard, and I totally get it, we're both parents, right? And we've both been parents of young children at one time. And it's very hard to remember that in the moment, right? Like it's very hard not to just like jump through and like go, go, go, and remember that like taking a couple of extra kind of runway, like rev up steps to get to that cooperation.
can really save us time on the other end.
Konika Wong (12:12)
Yes, I love that.
Yes, yes. I mean, I if we're talking about the bath, we can or or a diaper change, we can give them some choices. Would you, you know, would you like the temperature of the water warm or cool? Put your hand, dip your hand in, you know, we're really just having them tune into their body literacy. How does their body feel about this?
Rebecca Walsh (12:38)
Mm-hmm.
Konika Wong (12:39)
And the the level of the water. And then we can zoom out too. If the if this is something reoccurring, then we can look at the the bad time scenario. And did they need more time prior to play what finish playing whatever they were playing? We can give a five minute timer. Yeah. But you know, just repeating that yes, it is it is your choice and then giving them what choices we can. And then also, you know, naming their feelings around the moment. Yes.
You're feeling disappointed because you wanted to play more. But it's my job to keep you safe. we know that kids need those firm, consistent boundaries because we are keeping them safe with that. So
Rebecca Walsh (13:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, to that point around the curr for firm and consistent boundaries, I think the other thing that comes up, like if you are a mom and you're setting a boundary for your child that it's bath time and they push back and then you say, Okay, it's okay, we'll do bath tomorrow.
You also have to keep in mind that you just taught your daughter that a boundary that you've laid is very flexible and willing to be broken when somebody doesn't like it, right? So I think, you know, that's the other thing to really keep in mind is the other way that we model to our children how to be able to grow up and keep their boundaries. Or, you know, to our boys, how do I listen to the boundaries that are set by women?
It's also has so much to do with how we as parents are not changing our minds in those moments and changing the boundaries, right?
Konika Wong (14:24)
And guess the added layer would be the why. Like, why do we take a bath and let them, you know, name that they are very wise and they know why. Yeah. and ultimately do they like to feel clean? you know, and and do they like to be healthy and not sick? the washing the hands. and so that why piece can also, you know, be powerful.
Rebecca Walsh (14:47)
Yeah, and so I think yeah, and I love that. I love like bringing in to this conversation on, there are times when you develop mentally maybe are not able to make a choice for your body to keep yourself healthy and safe. And so,
I can help you, but how do I do that in a respectful way? Right. Like how do I help you? it doesn't always have to be picking up a child, kicking and screaming and putting putting them in the bath, right? And I think that that, if that's our only strategy as parents, is just, ultimately using physical force. You know, sometimes that's a necessary thing with a young child, right? But I think if that's our only strategy and we don't try some of these other strategies, like, you know.
again, identifying that feeling for them first, starting with that. And I know that's something that's been talked about a lot is the development of empathy and how important empathy is in these these 57 of like, where was the empathy piece, right? And so if we can, you know, when we're talking to our
Our children, start with that feeling and say, gosh, you know, you really don't want to take a bath. It's so hard to stop playing, right? and I wonder if one of these toys that you're playing with would like to take a bath with you tonight, right? Or, like you said, you know, like I wonder if you can help me find the perfect temperature because your body is it's very important that your body is comfortable.
Maybe sometimes the bath is too hot or too cold. Like, can you help me? And you're you'll be like the the temperature gauge and you tell me exactly, you know, so you're involving them in this process. So but yeah, I don't know if you have like a common refrain that you would give to parents when they say something like that in a not appropriate moment,
is there any kind of like refrain that just like works in you know, as a response to that?
Konika Wong (16:45)
I mean, maybe the it always comes down to I need to keep you safe. So I need to keep you safe. So I'm gonna do this. We can talk about it afterwards.
Rebecca Walsh (16:54)
But
Konika Wong (16:54)
A lot of the things we're talking about, just time is of the essence. And so if not I need to keep you safe, then I'm going to keep you safe. Yeah. And I love you. And that's why I'm gonna keep you safe. And bringing it, you know, taking that deep breath so they see you self-regulating because just
Rebecca Walsh (17:12)
That's good.
Konika Wong (17:13)
yeah, self-regulation is the first step.
and then it's those proactive conversations. So where we zoom out and we see that this thing happened, at bedtime we choose, you know, a book that is showing the same thing happened to another kid and we talk about it and give them a chance to talk about what their feelings were. But in those moments, you know, I'm gonna keep you safe is like maybe the quick phrase. So this is like not a choice right now. Yeah.
Rebecca Walsh (17:40)
Yeah. And I mean, and I love that I always said like, well, this is a health and safety decision. So this is a mommy and daddy decision, you know, or this is a mommy and mama decision. And I think that that also, you know, you're the boss of your body, but this is health and safety. So I'm gonna help I'm gonna help you to make a good choice for your body could be another way to phrase that, right? Like you're the boss of your body, but I'm gonna help you make a good choice for your body because it's health and safety. Yes.
okay this one is sort of similar but this parent writes in she says I have an eight year old and six year old boy and a two year old girl. what about when they are watching me change my daughter's diaper and my daughter is very upset and does not want her diaper change and is saying no diaper, no diaper
my son actually asked me why are you changing her diaper when she's saying no? So kind of similar, but yeah. Anything else you would add to that as far as like a teachable moment there for the older sibling and how tricky that could feel for the mom when she's been talking to her boys about this so much. Yeah.
Konika Wong (18:50)
Would start by appreciating the boy, like that is empathy there, you know. So
Rebecca Walsh (18:55)
Mm-hmm.
Konika Wong (18:56)
thank you for noticing that. We want to empower him to continue to speak up when he notices things like that. And then obviously in in a separate conversation with him, maybe even highlighting that developmentally he's come a long way and that eventually this baby's gonna be out of diapers. In fact, he can be a role model too of what it looks like when you're out of diapers and
So we have something to look forward to. during that actual moment, it can be a great skill to just name the feelings involved. Kids that can name their feelings are more likely to be able to read the feelings of other kids. And so we can start on just a very basic body literacy level of yes, I know it feels cold. You probably feel uncomfortable.
And so we're just naming these things that are showing a respectful interaction. Not, not that we're just gonna go in there and change that diaper. but we're we're having that empathy feel, that empathy. We're also self-regulating ourselves, taking I'm gonna take a deep breath because I can tell that this is this is hard right now. just that one moment of that deep breath. And again, this kid is like, you know, the the older child is watching this.
But all of these things are just showing that you're in tune with feelings, and that you know, but ultimately we get back to that thing. It's important for me to keep you safe. So we're gonna get this diaper changed because we're keeping you safe. yeah. But yeah
Such a beautiful, powerful teachable moment that the older child saw this and named it. And we really want to reward that with I'm so glad you noticed that. And then continue that conversation with the older child. because these are this is such a great example of a teachable moment for that older child that can be very rich.
Rebecca Walsh (20:48)
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. I love you emphasizing that because I know that's such an important part of this conversation. Again, it's like, how do we build empathy in our boys? Right. And how do we make sure that we're talking about feelings and helping them notice their own feelings and helping them notice the feelings of others. So rewarding like, you know, acknowledging that and saying, like, wow, you're noticing that. That's great. and then like you said, role modeling in that moment.
that yeah I know you really it's it you you don't like this, it's hard, you know, this is a health and safety. And then you can use those five M's, you know, there as well. And just, you know, do you want to hold the wipes for me? You know, or or making a choice in the beginning, right? Like do you want to get changed on the changing table or on the floor? You know, do you want to change in your playroom on the floor or in, you know,
the bedroom, and so as much as we can, giving them choices and opportunities to to make that choice is ideal, right? and there may be that that moment where we're just having to do it, you know, even when they're they're protesting. But I think, yeah, tak taking it back a little bit so that we're not always going in with that sort of there's no other way to do this except, you know, to do it forcefully and fast.
But yeah, walking that back a little bit and getting them involved. Can you hold the diaper cream for me? Can you undo this strap with me? Right? Can you undo your other strap? What sound does that make? What sound does this make, right? all of those things can really help. but yeah, I think that's such a wonderful point around the empathy piece.
And the the feelings that we're identifying for the baby, for the young toddler in that moment and also for the for the older one. Yes.
Okay. the next question is really an interesting one. And the parent writes in, can this be taken too far? I.e., an older brother is told to ask before
Ever touching a younger sibling, a younger sibling's hair, or giving a hug, or picking up. Is it necessary for them to ask permission every time? Or should we focus on just listening when they say stop, their face changes, etc.? Is asking more important when it's a playmate or someone they don't know as well?
Konika Wong (23:16)
Ultimately, the underpinning that we're trying to teach kids is to trust their gut and to really tune in to their intuition. So when we're talking about siblings, they know each other really well. so we it certainly seems excessive to, you know, and and actually a kid is a child is less likely to continue.
To apply these concepts of consent if they're overusing it. and so I think that also we don't want to derail this trust your gut intuition piece. So, yes, we're explicitly teaching, and there might be a moment where when we see body language that is showing that a child doesn't want to be touched, and it oftentimes in younger children is their body language and not their words.
You know, they're pulling away or they're making a certain face, facial expression. so we're teaching those baby steps, but ultimately we don't want to do to have overkill here, you know.
but as the grown-up, we can definitely listen when those siblings are playing and add those teachable moments of her body language looks like she doesn't or he doesn't want this. and then there's
Just lovely little teachable moments when you're at the playground and you're just watching dogs go by, or you're watching people interact with dogs, you have this moment of, you know, dogs don't have the words, but we can kids especially are so good at reading energy. We empower them to keep that trait that they have, you know, like as they as their brain develops more and more.
We lose touch with our intuition of knowing when something feels right or wrong. and you know, and there's always the step back. Like you you go to touch someone's hair and then you can tell they don't like it. So you step back. Actually, it's a teachable moment because you stepped back when you saw that they didn't like it.
Rebecca Walsh (25:18)
Yeah, yeah, I think that was that was definitely my feeling. And I and I really like how you bring up this point around we also don't want to teach that older brother to not trust his intuition about, you know, whether this would be a welcome touch in this moment, right? And if he's always having to stop and ask, stop and ask. Plus the two year old may or may not really me be able to make that decision. It could be overwhelming for her.
It could cause her anxiety to have to make all these decisions about like whether I want this or whether it it could be too much, right? For her as well, and not developmentally appropriate. But I think that the point of like, yeah, helping children to listen to their intuition. I mean, that is something with rough housing and there's a lot of actually really interesting studies on children who are not allowed to roughhouse as children, and that have been kept in very strict environments.
that that it actually can cause really significant social problems later on in life. it's kind of like a puppy, like they say if if a puppy isn't around another puppy, right, when they're little, that that can cause a lot of problems for that that dog as it grows. And one of the reasons is is in that kind of back and forth play, children learn to read facial expressions, they learn to read boundaries, they learn to
like you said, develop that intuition on like what is acceptable, what is not. and so yeah, I think for if if for me as a parent, I think I would guide my child less in the like you have to ask be permission before every time you touch your sibling. It seems a little unrealistic, right? First of all. But I might guide parents more in that direction of
I want you to really be paying attention to her body language, to her facial expressions, and to her words. And if you know, if she is stiffening up, that tells you that she doesn't like this. and so yeah, I think yeah, I think that's an excellent point around we don't want to take away the intuition of that older child either.
Konika Wong (27:34)
Yeah, and you can act you can act out scenarios too. It can be a fun game. Yeah. where, you know, you just act out different things. You stiffen up your body, you look down. the kid, like, is this a yes or a no right now? We're not gonna use the words yes or no. But you know, that's great. Practice
Rebecca Walsh (27:54)
Right. Yeah.
Konika Wong (27:55)
is really helpful, the practice and the phrasing.
Rebecca Walsh (27:59)
That's great. That's great. I love that. and yeah, helping them to develop that decision making, right?
Konika Wong (28:08)
Yes. Yes. It's that critical thinking that we really that empowers the kid ultimately, because we can't possibly talk about all the possible scenarios that will and so we are just empowering them to trust their gut. And yes.
Rebecca Walsh (28:21)
Yeah. So I yeah, I think it's really it's really important to make sure that we're not going too far to where we're actually doing the opposite. You know, like you said, if the child is being constantly told they have to ask before they ever touch their sibling's hair or, you know, pat their sibling on the shoulder, like you're taking away their intuition.
that they need later in life to make good decisions about when somebody is welcoming their touch and welcoming their, affection.
Konika Wong (28:56)
Yes. Yes.
Rebecca Walsh (28:57)
So we have to be careful about these conversations. We can actually undo and s like w by overdoing, we can actually do more harm sometimes than good.
Konika Wong (29:07)
Yeah, and ultimately we know our kids well. And so we're gonna be meeting the needs of our kids. My daughter, I remember at a playground, somebody was like hitting her in the face with a shovel, right? Sure. And she was saying stop or no. And so I had to teach her to just to physically like move her body away for whatever reason. She was just sitting there.
Rebecca Walsh (29:31)
Yeah.
Konika Wong (29:32)
And so, you know, I'm like, move your body away. Get, you know.
so we know our kids, and we know, you know, that kids have so many different personalities. And as parents, we're really going to either lean in or lean out where necessary. And of course, we know too that our kid one day is different from what you know, their brain remodel is happening so rapidly. so their needs are shifting, and we can just use our intuition to read where they are. yeah.
Yes. Yes. We've moved a long way. My generation, we learned about stranger danger, and now it really is about intuition. It's about you know, raising kids that have as much bodily autonomy and agency as possible just in the structure of your home, you know, are you know are certain things at their level where they can grab it to help them? so building a home.
Because kids in general, do feel like they aren't empowered or allowed to make a lot of choices. So wherever they can, we give them those opportunities so they they see themselves as as, you know, respected.
Rebecca Walsh (30:41)
Yes, absolutely. I and I love bringing in some of those respectful caretaking practices to to give them moments where they feel empowered, right? But again, to keep in mind that if your child is, let's say, doing something that's really annoying you, maybe that's a sound or they start, you know, n tickling you, but then it turns into a scratch. And if as a parent
you don't stop that behavior that you don't like, you're actually teaching the child that, if somebody they can read your face. They know mom doesn't like this. Mom's annoyed by this behavior, but she's not stopping me. So we're we're teaching our children whether that's, hey, if somebody doesn't like something,
I guess it's, I don't have to stop them. Cause mom
Konika Wong (31:31)
Yes.
Rebecca Walsh (31:32)
didn't stop me when she didn't like what I did. Or, you know, again, for a boy, it's like, you know, I don't have to listen to people. I think that's so much and I wish that the conversation could center more around this. I really wonder if we dived into the homes of these seven. I wonder
I wonder if there was just basic boundary setting by parents that was missing in those homes because that's the national trend that I see. I see parents that are not able to set basic limits with their kids, not able to hold a no. And I feel like that just needs to be so much more part of this conversation. When we model a boundary, we're modeling to children that boundaries are important and that boundaries can't be crossed.
Right?
Konika Wong (32:26)
Hundred percent. Yes. Yes.
Rebecca Walsh (32:29)
So I'm just wondering like how much of this is just really about you know, children who maybe weren't told no enough?
Konika Wong (32:42)
I think you're on to something.
Rebecca Walsh (32:46)
Right? And didn't have practice, we're we're told no, and then we're allowed to do the thing anyway. Like how how much of this is just that, right? which again, from what I see with with this parenting, like that's a it's a growing trend to just I don't know if we're too tired to set boundaries.
we're, you know, so disconnected from our grandparents and aunts and uncles and all the people that would help us to to help us feel more supported in being able to carry through with these boundaries that we have to set. Like parenting is so hard. I'm not saying this is easy at all.
But I think it it really is so important that children learn when we say children need to learn that no means no, they have to learn that from the parent. Did the parents no mean no? Or was that no always negotiable?
Konika Wong (33:45)
The other opportunity too is if you're partnered when they see the adult parents, their tone of voice and and how those boundaries, you know, there's such a role modeling going on. And I'm just, I would love to see more dads coming to our parent education workshops in general, just because we really need those male role models to be demonstrating, you know, all of the nuance that we've been talking about.
Rebecca Walsh (34:15)
What are some examples like of of that that could play out in a relationship? I mean, obviously they're not seeing that in a in a sexual way, right? But like what are some like just really common examples of, you know, partners listening to each other and their boundaries that that you would help us think about?
Konika Wong (34:38)
I mean it it's like any it could be daily conversations about who's doing the dishes, you know, and you know, we're modeling respect and we're modeling deep listening. and then I guess the tricky thing I I guess for the dads out there is that being comfortable with showing your feelings, your emotions, being emotional, having you know the and asking for help when you when you need help.
so men just have this opportunity to role model, you know, some of these like we talk about like the out-of-the-man box or the boy box trait. so being honest with our feelings and asking for help versus like I'm gonna be so tough that I don't cry, or not not asking for help. and of course, you know, this is relatable to all genders, but
Specifically in terms of if it is a home that has two parents, our tone of voice, our respect, we can, you know, underscore some of these things
Rebecca Walsh (35:41)
Yeah, no, that's a great that's a great point. Okay. this last question is what is the best way to instill the upstander mentality in our children to ensure that they are not on that text thread and not speaking up?
Konika Wong (35:57)
Since our conversation is the younger kids. Yeah. I think as much as we can teach empathy,
Rebecca Walsh (36:03)
Yeah.
Konika Wong (36:04)
and younger kids don't always have the elaborate words. So one thing we can do is just naming feelings. I mentioned this earlier, but kids that can name their feelings are more capable of reading other people's feelings.
we have all of these opportunities that, kids are born feeling. And then sometimes through their schooling, they become less they feel like they don't have permission to show a lot of their feelings. Yeah. And so, and then just giving them the words.
To know what are some ways that we can step in when we feel like something is not right. And oftentimes they do speak up and they, come to us when they feel like something was not fair. Yeah. and so we have this chance for saying, Thank you for speaking up. And again, like rewarding that behavior. Yes, something didn't feel right. And you spoke up. That didn't seem fair. Thank you for doing that, because that helps keep
So and so safe. They needed help. and so we're just naming a lot of these.
Rebecca Walsh (37:12)
And that I mean, I think that's an interesting piece around,
what is the difference between tattling and telling, right? And when do we get an adult versus when do we, empower children to, solve their own problems and that that if we're telling
an adult every time somebody, is that the best way to raise an upstander? Or is it more around empowering children, like if they've used their words, if they've tried to solve that problem, it doesn't work, that's when you get an adult or yeah, I'm trying to
Konika Wong (37:47)
Yeah, I think it is really helpful, like you said, to have like two steps in your mind that you try. Like you know, oftentimes when we're de escalating conflict with kids, you know, we ask, What did you try? And how did that go? because we want, yes, ultimately to empower them to solve a lot of these conflicts or prevent them, really.
but stepping in and being an upstander, like whether it's like on a group chat, whether it's online or whether it's in person, just like all of these things, is something that needs to be taught. and we have all of these moments where we can bring up things that have happened. Yeah. Like
I always used to bring home to my dinner table things that happen in my classroom. So my daughter, so we have these real life scenarios. What would you do? yeah, so scenarios are so helpful. and it can be a fun like game that a family could play where out of a jar you have some different scenarios and you pick them out and and you know, you're acting them out and thinking, what could we do?
Rebecca Walsh (38:53)
Yeah.
But I think now a lot of the language is like, you know, being a snitch. I don't know if you see that in the early elementary. Do you see that word come up or no? Yes. Okay. So I think that this is a really important thing to talk about.
Konika Wong (39:07)
Yeah, it's so nuanced. And and again, I think it probably like leans into just like personalities, like when I'm running a classroom, I know the kid that needed to speak up and it could have been not physically hurting like with the scissors, but it could have been her emotions, her feelings hurt. And I know my students, you know, I will reward the one that speaks up for that. But then I also know the kid that's tattletaling constantly and not solving their own problems.
So as parents, we know our kids well and we can look into whether we need to push them in the direction of speaking up more and standing up for themselves. Yes. Whether we need to push them into the direction of problem solving, for themselves.
Rebecca Walsh (39:45)
Yeah, that's such an excellent point. And I think, we really have to educate children that it's okay to get help if someone's in danger, if somebody is hurting them. Like those are things that we should always tell, if your friend might not like you because you told on them, right? Like those conversations, I think could be really powerful in this.
Conversation as well because
Konika Wong (40:13)
The more nuanced piece is like if I stand up for what's right, I'm an upstander. this is again, this is more much this is probab we're getting up developmentally here into older ages, but are they themselves in danger if they speak up? So what are some safe ways that you don't have to right in the moment sometimes? I know we're getting really I mean, it's this whole event has really brought up so much analysis, but
there are parents that reached out to me that said that my son was in a scenario like this where he said, That's not okay, stop. And then the kids bullied him for that, right? And so in that moment, perhaps like where he immediately gets a trusted grown up. he leaves. Just he leaves, he gets a trusted grown up. That you can be an upstander without having because for some kids.
Like they feel in danger themselves, or it just takes a lot of bravery and courage to speak up to these people that are using their power inappropriately. so just putting that as one of the tools in their toolbox that they know that they don't have to be the hero, have the hero moment where they say this is not right, to the person that is overstepping the boundaries.
Rebecca Walsh (41:31)
Yeah.
Konika Wong (41:32)
They can always
That it never hurts, you'll never be in trouble for getting a trusted grown-up involved. Yeah. You know, like in the case of the the Cornell situation, one of those 57 easily could have, called 911. So, we're not asking them to intervene and go in, right? But there were there were things that kept their body safe.
And that even would not reveal who the quote unquote snitch is, would have would not have been revealed. And yet they could take a very powerful upstander action and stop what was happening without putting their face in danger.
Rebecca Walsh (42:11)
Yeah, I think that's that's such an excellent point. And I think if children are educated more, I I do feel like the the tattling or snitching pushback that kids get for that can be so disruptive to to children, getting help in the face of a bully or getting help in the face of danger, right? They don't wanna be a snitch, they don't wanna be a tattletale.
and so really educating children on the difference between, is this a small problem that you can solve on your own? Like absolutely go for it. But if someone's in danger, if you're in danger, if you're protecting somebody from getting hurt, it's always okay and you'll never be in trouble. And like you said, working individually with your child to
are they the child that needs to speak up more or are they the child that needs to learn how to problem solve more? Right. I think that's such wonderful advice to nuance for our children.
Konika Wong (43:06)
Yeah. My daughter was on the other end where it was like microaggressions and she never spoke up. But yeah, I supervised the play dates and I saw the microaggressions and like, you know, named them for her. That it's not okay when someone's using their doll to say mean things to you, but it's the doll's voice. Like it was so it was so sophisticated that she never told me because she just felt like it didn't cross the line, but it was the repetition of these microaggressions.
Rebecca Walsh (43:34)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it is like, you know, again, so many teachable moments, that we can be there and support and, you know, always start with the child in those moments and say, did you like that tone of voice? Did you like the way that she pushed your body there? Can you tell her? You know, depending on the age, right? But like with a young child, like can you tell, can you say no stop?
I don't like that, or for a a slightly older child, hmm, maybe you could tell your friend that you don't like that. That's that's being a good friend to tell your friend what you like and all of those are such teachable moments on empowering our children to know and trust themselves, right?
But we're not gonna have an adult that always swoops in for them and that is telling, don't touch, don't talk to my daughter like that. Don't touch my daughter like that, right? No, that's not gonna help her because where are you, on the the playground the next day, right? But like you said, really working with her to ask her those questions and have her answer those questions for herself and to learn how to do something for the for herself. So I think
I think this is so relevant and I'm so glad that our conversation kind of ended here because it's such an important piece of bodily literacy is recognizing when my own boundary as a child has been crossed, right? And how do I talk about that to my friend? When do I tell an adult? When do I tell somebody? when do I get help? And that's yeah, I think that's that's really critical in this conversation.
Konika Wong (45:14)
Yes, I love that. Yes.
Rebecca Walsh (45:16)
Well, thank you so much, you want to tell us how do we how do we find out more about these and and if you wanna tell us briefly about some of the other classes that you offer to the community that are all really connected to this issue.
Konika Wong (45:29)
Sure. So you can join my mailing list. I send out a newsletter on the full moon and the new moon each month.
So on October 20th, my dear friend Tan Veer, who was a former principal, we are tag teaming a parent education session called What Are We
Teaching Our Boys? And then on October 24th, I have a consent workshop that's called I'm the Boss of My Body. And it's for preschool to second graders in our treehouse classroom.
And then finally the great starting point is just with my kids' book, How to Tame a Tickle B monster, a first book about body safety. It's available on my website and it's as on on Amazon as well.
Rebecca Walsh (46:13)
Amazing.
thank you again for being here and for the work that you are doing, have done and continue to do for our children and our future adults and young adults.
Konika Wong (46:24)
Thanks for bringing this topic to light.
